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Sunday, April 26, 2009

The value of Expertise and Primal Precision

If you can equip a best in slot item with expertise and are over expertise cap rather then equiping something else remove the talent point from Primal Precision.
Sadly there is no real alternative.

[edit]Corrected some math[/edit]

Recently I have heard from 2 different sides that Primal Precision (PP) is not really worth it. So I decided to do some thinking again.

The first was honest mistake. The person thought that the expertise cap was at 15 for tanking. It is however at 15% (generally accepted cap) which for druids is 60 expertise. If you are below 26 expertise any expertise is double the value since until you are dodge capped it counts towards both caps.

The second one was the following: It stated that when expertise capped by gear Primal Precision is not worth it. I wondered how much it was worth really.

So how can I see what it is worth? If you look at gems you will see that 16 expertise = 16 agility = 16 strength = 32 AP.
Now those gems all have different values for each class, making them perfect for one class, more worthless to an other.

If you look at enchants you will see that on gloves for instance 15 Expertise holds the same slot as 44 AP. You can not look at this for real though, since the expertise enchant is way cheaper. An expertise enchant on gloves is of would be a "green" enchant where 44Ap would be a "blue" enchant (as in green "uncommon" gems and blue "rare" gems). To have the same value expertise enchant it should be 22 expertise (if you follow me).

I did the comparison in a different way: I used Rawr (raidbuffed).
I am expertise capped by using Inevitable Defeat (78 exp). To make that useless I equipped Chestguard of the Recluse (83 expertise).
The dps value from Inevitable defeat dropped from 1583 to 1523. So 78 expertise is worth about 60 dps.

I did the same for Chestguard of the Recluse. I unequipped Inevitable Defeat and was still expertise capped. The chastguard's value went up from 314 to 385. That is 71 dps. So it is about the same.

1 expertise ~= 0.8 dps.

So 10 expertise = 2.5% = 2.5* 32 rating = 80 expertise rating.
PP therefore (for me) is worth about 80 dps on gear. When, and only when, you are expertise capped (26 expertise). If I would not have PP I would have to get it on gear loosing 60 dps.

Total dps is 6363 what rawr tells me. If I had to get that by gear alone I would have 6303 dps. 60 / 6303 = 0.95%%, that is 0.48% per talent point.

So that is not really much. It is that there are not really any other talent points for cat that are worth more.

Once again, don't be mistaken. When you are not capped by gear alone the talent point is worth much more since 1 talentpoint will increase dps with 2.5% alone (double parry and dodge cap). I am only saying that if you find a better place for your talentpoint and your best in slot items have expertise plenty... only then you can remove a point in PP.


  1. Can't see myself getting 60 expertise from gear any time soon sadly -.-

  2. cap is 14% or 56 expertise skill.

    That number has changed between 54 56 57 and 58 (oddly i have never heard 55 anywhere) but never more than 58 till now

  3. @Darksend
    Thanks for the info. If I ever get close to expertise cap or want it for any reason I will value your information! But if I have that much expertise I'm gonna see how I can not replace expertise items with dodge items instead.

  4. Quote:”The dps value from Inevitable defeat dropped from 1583 to 1823. So 78 expertise is worth about 80 dps.”
    Did I miss something or did you post some wrong numbers?

    If I read your post correctly you compare someone (a cat to be precise) who is soft capped and who want to spend 2 talent points somewhere else. How much dps does this guy loose if he takes 2 point from PP and replaces the lost expertise by gemming/enchanting?
    Put in another way: PP is worth 80 expertise. 5 gems can be worht 80 expertise or 80 agility (5 x 16 agility gems). In rawr, raid buffed, it seems as 1 x 16 agility gem is worth about 20 dps so 5 gems should be woth 100 dps (total dps in rawr is 5800-5900). These values are very close to what Marino posted.

    I actually thought PP would be worth more! Call me an idiot but i got 8,5% expertise and now Marino (cause you:P) made me wonder if I should take 2 points from PP and put them into Nurturing Instinct (when I started wow my first charater was my druid who I rolled because I wanted to be a hybrid tank/dps (aka off-tank)with as much utillity as possible. By taking 2 points from PP I looses 20 DPS (replacing 1 x 16 agility gem with 1 x 16 expertise gem).

    The damage lost from finishing moves by not having PP is very very small (see math below).

    Boss fight last 10 min (600 sec)
    Total DPS: 5000 damage / sec
    Crit: 50%
    Shread: 5000 damage / shread
    Shread: 42 energy/ shread
    Combo points/shread: 1,5 combo points / shread
    FB (avarage): 7500 damage / FB
    FB: 35 energy / FB

    Calculating damage/energy:
    For every 3,33 shread ((5 combo points / FB) / (1,5 combo point / shread)) 5 combo point is gained and at 5 combo points we use FB. I will consider 3,33 shreads and 1 FB as one cyclus.

    Energy used / cyclus: 175 energy ((42 energy / shread * 3,33 shreads) + (1 FB * 35 energy /FB))
    Damage / energy: 138,1 damage / energy (((5000 damage / shread* 3,33 shreads) + (7500 damage /FB)* 1 FB)) / 175 energy.

    It seems as the the energy Prima Precision saved for finishing moves is very little.
    Consider you are expertise capped and short of the hit cap by 2,5% and consider 5 finishing moves / min or 50 finishing moves in 10 min.
    Energy used for finishing moves: 1500 energy (50 Finishing moves * 30 energy / finishing move))
    Energy lost without PP: 37,5 energy (1500 energy *0,025 (below the hit cap by 2,5%))
    Energy lost with PP: 7,5 energy ((1500 energy *0,025) - (1500 energy *0,025 * 0,8))
    Energy saved by PP: 30 energy
    DPS: 6,9 DPS ((30 energy) * 138,1 damage / energy) / 600 sec)
    % increase: 0,14% ((6,9 DPS / 5000 DPS) *100 %)

    The closer you get to the hit and soft expertise cap the less value PP gives and when hit and soft expertise capped PP is worth 0 for a cat.

  5. Yeah it was a mistype and a miscalculation. It was not 80 points, it was 60. I corrected it.

    Your conclusion might be a bit confusing. You meant this... Right?

    "If you get to choose between expertise capped by gear or expertise capped by PP, go for the cap by gear alone if you find a good use for the 2 talentpoints."

  6. I think I will put the conclusion on PP like this: If you have bad gear and cant reach the soft expertise cap with gear and PP, then PP is worth more then 5% DPS for a cat (2,5% dodge + 2,5% miss).
    If you are expertise capped by gear withouth PP then PP is worth close to 0 for a cat.

    The better gear you get, the worse PP gets (for a cat).

  7. "If you get to choose between expertise capped by gear or expertise capped by PP, go for the cap by gear alone if you find a good use for the 2 talentpoints."

    Is a good way to put it. When you know that you will loose somwhere between 1% and 1,5% dps (depending on gear) by getting 80 expertise by gear (gems+enchants) then atleast you know what you are loosing and then you yourself have to decide if the 2 talent points are worth more elsewhere - for you.

  8. What is the value of PP (or expertise) for a tank?

    Boss parry: 15%
    Parry swing timer increase: 1,4

    Expertise(%): Damage taken:
    15 - 100
    12,5 - 101
    10 - 102
    9 - 102,4
    7,5 - 103
    6,5 - 103,4
    5 - 104
    2,5 - 105
    0 - 106

    As can be seen from the chart above, a tank takes about 1% less damage by increasing expertise by 2,5% (PP increases expertise by 2,5%). Ofcourse the 1% damage is on average whereas parry haste is spike damage.

    I dont think expertise is all that important for a tank at the moment. It is very hard to hit the cap and I dont think Blizzard is designing the bosses thinking that all tanks are expertise capped.

    Should expertise be seen as avoidance or mittergation? 2,5% expertise increases incomming damage by 1% on average and I therfore think expertise can be looked at as mittergation!!
    When looking at PP and thick hide (10% more armor) which of the two is best for a off-tank?
    Is it too dangerous for an off-tank to take the two talent points out of PP?

    If the tank has 12,5% expertise. The boss parries 5% of attack. Damage tagen by the tank compared to a tank which is expertise capped (15%): (0,975*1 + 0,025*1,4)*100% = 101% or 1% more damage.

  9. How much mittergation is Thick Hide?

    Consider a tank with 30.000 armor with thick hide (TH) and 1500 agility.
    Tank armor (with TH): 30.000
    Tank armor (without TH): 27.545
    Damage reduction by TH: 8,4% (or 9,9% with a 25% armor buff)

    Consider a tank with 32.000 armor with thick hide and 1500 agility.
    Tank armor (with TH): 32.000
    Tank armor (without TH): 29.363
    Damage reduction by TH: 8,8% (or 10,5% with a 25% armor buff)

    Conclusion: Thick hide reduces physical damage by approximately 10% and thick hide get better with better gear.

    Disclaimer: These calculations neglect savage defence (SD)(bear shield). But SD gets better the less damage you take and SD and thick hide therefore complement each other (they make each other stronger).

    Math example
    Formular (wowwiki):
    DR% = Armor / (Armor + (467.5 * AttackerLevel - 22167.5))

    Consider a tank with 30.000 armor with thick hide and 1500 agility. Without thick hide the tank would have 27545 armor ((30.000-2*1500)/1,1)+2*1500).

    DR% (with Thick hide):
    76,33% (= 30000/(30000+(467,5*83-22167,5))+0,12)
    Damage taken: 23,67% (100%-76,33%)

    DR% (without Thick hide):
    74,35% (=27545/(27545+(467,5*83-22167,5))+0,12)
    Damage taken: 25,65% (100%-74,4%)

    Damage reduction by thick hide:
    8,4% (25,65%/23,67%)*100%)

    With the 25% armor bonus from priest/shaman healing spells thick hide reduces damage by 9,9% (math not shown).

  10. Ehm anon, I do not see the relavance of thick hide for this post.
    And as far as expertise goes for bear, the question is irrelevant.
    1 you will not get expertise cap. If you do you seriously lack some mittigation/survivability.
    2 there are no other talents that do the same for threat. Even softcapped you get 1.25% more dps/threat from it (vs 100% max. If you for example are at 90 the 1.25% = 1.25%/90% = 1.4%).
    Next to threat is gives also more survivability.

    There are other talents anywhere close to the value of PP.

  11. Marino, my post is a little off the subject. I know you are considering a full dps or full tank spec. But I am mostly considering a hybrid spec. I am sometimes asked to heal because we can hardly get a 10 or 25 man uldar going – I only get one feral spec, and I mostly off tank.

    A big problem for most hybrid specs is you have to choose 2 of these 3 talents: Thick Hide, Feral Instinct and Infected Wounds (I only have 6 talent point to spend here). If PP only reduces physical damage taken by 1% (or 0,5%/talent point) and Thick Hide reduces physical damage taken by 10% (or 3,3%/talent point) then from a tank perspective Thick Hide wins. And since PP is worth close to nothing for a kitten - if you can get to the soft expertise cap (either with gear or gem/enchants) - then I defently have to consider spending the two talent points in Thick Hide rather then at PP.

    Your post did make me think if PP is any good – even if you have to gem/enchant a little to get to the soft cap.
    My conclusion is: PP is a very bad talent for a kitty (if you can ge to the soft expertise cap) and not that important to a tank (granted a MT spec will get PP).

    PS: As you might have noticed, as a tank I do not value threat very high. But that might be because my guilds dps is not that great!

  12. Haha indeed. Threat is easy if your dpssers are not that good.