Tarskin has pointed out that I forgot the difference in Maul and Lacerate dots when they get 4% MMS damage. So I did the math again. MMS is better by 1.3%.
Let me state first that this post is a comparison between a very popular tanking spec 0/55/16, holding SS and MSS, and an alternative spec 0/60/11 holding iMangle and no MMS.
I forgot Maul and Lacerate dots in the rotation. The damage for MMS and not MMS is different of course.
So I went back to rawr. Because some values had changed I redid the spreadsheat.
Some weird things I saw; Windfury totem changes the damage per maul. Of course it changes the total damage by Maul, but now also changes the average damage and threat done by Maul apparently. If anyone has an explanation for this I'd like to hear it.
New spreadsheet:
It shows that with WF totem the threat you loose with iMangle rotation is 105 threat per second. This is 1.3% threat loss.
So if you are looking for max threat, MMS spec is the way to go. Well, to be honest, drop something like IW and ask someone else to apply the same debuff. Get iMangle too. That does the most threat.
However you can also ask the few top dpssers to hold back a little bit or use some threat reducing effects (FD) or get hunters and rogues to misdirect to you.
Still, in the end, my conclusion stands I think. 1.3% threat loss on a boss is something not that bad. You get 5% more uptime from Idol of the Corruptor it halves it's downtime. That is worth it I think. If you can dodge an attack that otherwise would have killed you it saves you from a wipe.
PS. This all made me think to what things can you expect normally for being raidbuffed (25 man).
So my next post will hold the raidbuffs you can normally expect in a raid and should be checked while comparing items to eachother.
If you have the idol you should take iMangle, i no where said you shouldn't -.- I even made the references to that in the MT post i have and such.
ReplyDeleteMy reasoning assumes you don't have the idol in the anti-mangle post.
I know. I wasn;t making a point towards you. I was making it in general. To sum up my opinion in all these posts on both blogs.
ReplyDeleteThanks again for all the feedback.
ahh ok. Your welcome and ditto :)
ReplyDeleteI have done some napkin math on talent points and glyphs. The math and discussion is aimed at Feral raiding druids.
ReplyDeleteI am going to make 5 post.
The 1st. is about the math for glyphs and a summary of the relative value of each glyph at the top of the post.
The 2nd is about the math for talents and a summary of the relative value of each talent at the top of the post.
The 3rd. is about Demoralizing Roar as this talent is misunderstood and undervalued.
The 4th. I look at the buffs and debuffs which feral druid can supply and which buffs can be supplied by other classes/specs.
The 5th. I take a look at those talent points which are worth taking a closer look at.
I made these post because I think there, in general, are alot of misunderstanding (over- or under-valuation) of talents and specs. The math should not be taken as gosbil, but as a general comparrison of talents and glyphs which can be used to compare the DPS (and tanking) value of different specs.
Especially I want to prove to those who think anything but a pure DPS or pure tanking spec is either totally gimped for either DPSing or tanking. A hybrid spec which does not take Feral Agression, Improved Mangle and Master Shapeshifter only looses about 3-4,5% DPS compared to a pure DPS spec. Also, Glyphs are providing only 1-3% DPS increase (for each glyph), and taking only 2 DPS Glyphs for a hybrid spec will not gimp your DPS (you looses another 1% DPS).
To me a hybrid spec is as specialised as a pure tanking and pure DPS build. A hybrid spec shines as an off-tank spec. Since Feral druids as spec already shines as off-tanks (can both tank and DPS with the same gear) a hybrid spec further strengthens the niche where Feral druids outperforms all other classes/specs.
If you are your guilds Main Tank then go for a pure tanking spec. If you find yourself DPSing and off-tanking alot you should not neglect a hybrid spec as your best option.
1st post.
ReplyDeleteGlyph of Mangle (GoM), Savage Roar (GoSR), Shread (GoS), Beserk (GoB), Rip (GoR). Which to choose?
All math is posted at the bottem.
%DPS increase by glyphs:
Glyph of Mangle: 3,12%
Glyph of Savage Roar: 3%
Glyph of Shread: 2,30-1,41%
Glyph of Beserk: 0,92%
Glyph of Rip: 1,73-0,58%
I have posted the glyphs with the highest DPS increase at the top.
Although glyph of Mangle does give the highest value the value drop to 0 if you have a mangle bot or arms warrior in the raid.
The value of glyph of Shread and glyph of Rip depends on your gear. If you have the t7 set bonus then the glyphs have the lowest value posted.
If you do have a mangle bot/arms warrior in the raid you should choose Glyph of Savage Roar, Shread and Beserk for highest sustained DPS.
If you do not have a mangle bot/arms warrior replace glyph of Beserk with glyph of Mangle.
Disclaimer: The numbers posted above are based on assumptions and should not be considered as 100% accurate values.
Math:
* The math done at the post above considered FB to cost 0 energy instead of 35 energy, hench this edited post.
Assumptions:
Total DPS: 5000 damage / sec
Crit: 50%
Shread: 5000 damage / shread
Shread: 42 energy/ shread
Combo points/shread: 1,5 combo points / shread
FB (avarage): 7500 damage / FB
FB: 35 energy / FB
Boss fight last 10 min (600 sec)
Calculating damage/energy:
For every 3,33 shread ((5 combo points / FB) / (1,5 combo point / shread)) 5 combo point is gained and at 5 combo points we use FB. I will consider 3,33 shreads and 1 FB as one cyclus.
Energy used / cyclus: 175 energy ((42 energy / shread * 3,33 shreads) + (1 FB * 35 energy /FB))
Damage / energy = (((5000 damage / shread* 3,33 shreads) + (7500 damage /FB)* 1 FB)) / 175 energy = 138,1 damage / energy.
Glyph of Mangle (GoM): Mangle debuff last an additional 6 seconds
Energy spend on mangle on a 10 min fight:
Without GoM: 2000 energy ((40 energy / 12 sec) *600 sec)
With GoM: 1333 energy ((40 energy / 18 sec) *600 sec)
Energy saved by using GoM: 677 energy (2000 – 1333)
DPS increase: 155,8 ((677 energy * 138,1 damage / energy) / 600 sec)
% increase: 3,12% ((155,8 DPS / 5000 damage/sec)*100%)
Glypth of Beserk (GoB): beserk last and additonal 5 seconds.
Energy saved on a 10 min fight:
Energy saved: 200 energy (4 beserks in 10 min (we regin 10 energy/sec for 4*5seconds)).
DPS increase: 46,0 ((200 energy * 138,1 damage / energy) / 600 sec)
% increase: 0,92% ((155,8 DPS / 5000 damage/sec)*100%)
Glypth of Shread (GoS)(Rip last and additonal 6 seconds):
Glypth of Rip (GoR) (Rip last and additonal 4 seconds):
T7 (Rip last and additonal 4 seconds):
Rip(alone):
Energy spend/second = 30 energy (rip)/12 seconds = 2,5 energy/second
Energy spend/fight = 2,5 energy/second * 600 seconds = 1500 energy
Rip+t7 (2 set bonus):
Energy spend/second = 30 energy (rip)/16 seconds = 1,875 energy/second
Energy spend/fight = 1,875 energy/second * 600 seconds = 1125 energy
Rip+GoS:
Energy spend/second = 30 energy (rip)/18 seconds = 1,67 energy/second
Energy spend/fight = 1,67 energy/second * 600 seconds = 1000 energy
Rip+t7+GoR
Energy spend/second = 30 energy (rip)/20 seconds = 1,5 energy/second
Energy spend/fight = 1,5 energy/second * 600 seconds = 900 energy
Rip+t7+GoS:
Energy spend/second = 30 energy (rip)/22 seconds = 1,36 energy/second
Energy spend/fight = 1,36 energy/second * 600 seconds = 818 energy
Rip+GoR+GoS
Energy spend/second = 30 energy (rip)/22 seconds = 1,36 energy/second
Energy spend/fight = 1,36 energy/second * 600 seconds = 818 energy
Rip+t7+GoR+GoS
Energy spend/second = 30 energy (rip)/26 seconds = 1,15 energy/second
Energy spend/fight = 1,15 energy/second * 600 seconds = 692 energy
Calculation examples:
Rip vs. Rip+t7:
Energy saved/fight: 375 energy (1500 energy – 1125 energy)
DPS increase: 86,3 ((375 energy * 138,1 damage / energy) / 600 sec)
% increase: 1,73% ((86,3 DPS / 5000 damage/sec)*100%)
Rip vs. Rip+GoS:
Energy saved/fight: 500 energy (1500 energy – 1000 energy)
DPS increase: 115,1 ((500 energy * 138,1 damage / energy) / 600 sec)
% increase: 2,30% ((115,1 DPS / 5000 damage/sec)*100%)
Rip vs. Rip+t7+GoS:
Energy saved/fight: 682 energy (1500 energy – 818 energy)
DPS increase: 157,0 ((682 energy * 138,1 damage / energy) / 600 sec)
% increase: 3,14% ((157,0DPS / 5000 damage/sec)*100%)
Rip vs. Rip+GoR+GoS
Energy saved/fight: 682 energy (1500 energy – 818 energy)
DPS increase: 157,0 ((682 energy * 138,1 damage / energy) / 600 sec)
% increase: 3,14% ((157,0DPS / 5000 damage/sec)*100%)
Rip vs. Rip+t7+GoR+GoS
Energy saved/fight: 808 energy (1500 energy – 692 energy)
DPS increase: 186,0 ((808 energy * 138,1 damage / energy) / 600 sec)
% increase: 3,72% ((186,0DPS / 5000 damage/sec)*100%)
Spreadsheet:
Gear vs. Gear %DPS increas
(t7) 1,73
(GoR) 1,73
(GoS) 2,30
(GoR+GoS) 3,14
(t7+GoS) 3,14
(t7+GoR) 2,76
(t7+GoR+GoS) 3,72
(t7) (t7+GoR) 1,04
(t7) (t7+GoS) 1,41
(t7) (t7+GoS+GoR) 1,99
(t7+GoR) (t7+GoS+GoR) 0,96
(t7+GoS) (t7+GoS+GoR) 0,58
Conclusion:
GoS is worth more than GoR (assuming you get 3 shreads in the 18-26 second Rip window).
If you have the t7 bonus both GoR and GoS get less value then if you are not using the t7 set bonus.
If you have t7 then GoS is worth 1,41% damage increase.
If you have t7 and GoS then GoR is only worth 0,58% damage increase.
2nd post.
ReplyDeleteTalent analysis:
This analysis is made to help you decide which talent to take for your feral build in a raid setting – be it a DPS, Tank or Hybrid spec. The % in bracket is the expected DPS increases from this talent and TP is the increase for 1 talent point.
Feral talents
Tier 1:
Ferocity (2,7%-1,5% or 0,54%-0,3%/TP) a weak dps talent.
Feral Aggression (about 1% or 0,2%/TP) a very weak dps talent.
If you have a mangle bot / arms warrior then the difference between Ferocity (1,5% or 0,3%/TP) and Feral Aggression (1% or 0,2%/TP) is not big.
For a hybrid or MT spec it might be worth considering Feral Aggression as it reduces incomming damage a little. If you are going to pick up adds the 5 extra rage to swipe might hurt too much though. If you are in doubt get Ferocity.
Tier 2:
Feral Instinct rarely usefull on a boss fight and mostly boost dps on easy trash.
For tanking helps with threat on multiple adds that have to be burned down fast.
Savage Fury (3%-4% or 1,5-2%/TP) a very good DPS talent.
Benefits threat while tanking (increases dps/tps while tanking a boss by about 14-16% (assuming maul+mangle does 70-80% of all damage).
Thick Hide does nothing for DPS.
Help with mitagation (but how much?).
Tier 3:
Feral Swiftness make a cat get faster to and from a boss and thereby helps DPS a little and also reduces (AoE) damage recived.
For a tank 4% dodge is 8% less physical damage taken (asuming 50% avoidance).
Survival Instincts add survivability for both cat and Tank.
Mandatory for a tank.
Sharpened Claws (4,1% or 1,36%/TP) is a solid DPS talent.
Benefits threat and Bear shield (SD) while tanking.
Tier 4:
Shredding Attacks (5,4% or 2,7%/TP) a very good dps talent.
Does not do much for tanking.
Predatory Strikes increases DPS (but how much?).
Makes Bear shield (SD) a little stronger (about 150 damage absorbance stronger).
Primal Fury (3,7% or 1,86%/TP) a very good DPS talent.
Does not do much while tanking a boss but helps on aggro on adds.
Primal Precision (2,6% or 1,32%/TP) is a solid DPS talent. If you are expertise capped (6,5% for cat) skip this talent.
Benefits threat (with about 2,6% or 1,32%/TP) while tanking and reduces parry haste (until you get to 15%).
Tier 5:
Brutal Impact is mostly a PvP talent.
Gives a tank an interrupt (Bash) with a shorter cooldown.
Feral Charge unless it is a tank and spank boss it will help you get to the boss faster and thouse help your dps some!!
For a tank it helps with picking up adds, picking up a boss after pushback and the like.
Nurturing Instinct probably mostly a PvP talent. Make your off heals stronger and add survivability for a cat. Might even consider to keep DPSing while you take AoE damage if you also have Predatory Instincts and Barkskin active (just a thought from me).
Tier 6:
Natural Reaction does nothing for cat DPS.
For a tank 6% dodge is 12% less physical damage taken (asuming 50% avoidance). The rage gained from dodging helps for threat on trash.
Heart of the Wild increases DPS (but how much?).
Increase stamina by 10% for a tank.
Survival of the Fittest increases DPS (but how much?).
Increases all stats by 6%.
Makes a tank crit immune and increases armor. A mandatory talent for a tank or hybrid spec.
Tier 7:
Leader of the Pack (3,4% or 3,4%/TP) an excelent DPS talent.
Benefits threat and Bear shield (SD) while tanking.
Improved LotP does nothing for DPS. If you are off-healing or often shift between bear and cat this is a very strong talent. It also heals the raid.
For a tank it might be argued how good this talent is. I would recomend this talent for a tank or off-tank/hybrid spec.
Primal Tenacity a cat PvP talent.
Tier 8:
Protector of the Pack does nothing for cat DPS.
Reduces all damage while tanking by 12% and makes Bear shield (SD) absorb a little more damage.
Predatory Instincts (5,9% or 1,96%/TP) a very good DPS talent. Adds survivability for a cat. Does nothing for a tank.
Infected Wounds does not increase DPS.
Reduces physical damage by 20%. Make it possible to kite mobs (those who are not immune).
This talent is debatable because other classes can keep the buff up for you. You might want to look into your raid composition before you pick up this talent. If you dont want to rely on others then pick up this talent.
Tier 9:
King of the Jungle (5,5% % or 1,84%/TP) very a good DPS talent.
Can add some burst damage/threat while tanking.
Mangle (5,8%-0% or 5,8%-0%/TP) if you got a mangle bot / arms warrior you might not use mangle at all. Otherwise an excelent DPS talent.
Benefits threat while tanking.
Improved Mangle (1,4%-0% or 0,46%-0%/TP) a weak DPS talent. If you got a mangle bot / arms warrior you might not use mangle at all.
Does not benefit a tank on AoE pulls where you should not use mangle at all (maby once) untill most of the mobs are dead. Acording to Kalon Improved Mangle improves dps by 2,8% and tps by 3,74% for a tank on a boss fight (http://wowthinktank.blogspot.com/2009/01/druid-threat-value-of-improved-mangle.html).
Tier 10:
Rend & Tear (4,3% or 0,86%/TP) a good DPS talent.
Benefits threat while tanking.
Primal Gore (12,7% or 12,7%/TP) by far the best DPS talent.
Benefits threat a little while tanking.
Tier 11:
Berserk (4,6% or 4,6%/TP) an excelent DPS talent.
Gives burst damage/threat while tanking adds or a boss.
Resto talents:
Tier 1:
Improved Mark of the Wild increases DPS (but how much?). Increases all stats by 4%. Get this talent as there is nothing better at tier 1 in resto.
Furor increases DPS a little for an off-tank. You should only put 3 points into this talent unless you pvp.
Tier 2:
Naturalist (10% or 2%/TP) a very good DPS talent.
Benefits threat while tanking
Tier 3:
Omen of Clarity (3,7% or 3,7%/TP) an excelent DPS talent (I think I somehow undervaluate this talent! But a must have for DPS anyhow).
Optional for a Tank. Does not do much while tanking a boss and is unreliable for picking up adds.
Master Shapeshifter (2,7% or 0,54%/TP) a weak DPS talent as it cost 5 talent points.
Benefits threat while Tanking.
Disclaimer: The numbers posted above are based on assumptions and should not be considered as 100% accurate values. However the relative value of the numbers between the talents should be fairly accurate.
Math:
Assumptions:
Boss fight last 10 min (600 sec)
Total DPS: 5000 damage / sec
Crit: 50%
Shread: 5000 damage / shread
Shread: 42 energy/ shread
Combo points/shread: 1,5 combo points / shread
FB (avarage): 7500 damage / FB
FB: 35 energy / FB
Calculating damage/energy:
For every 3,33 shread ((5 combo points / FB) / (1,5 combo point / shread)) 5 combo point is gained and at 5 combo points we use FB. I will consider 3,33 shreads and 1 FB as one cyclus.
Energy used / cyclus: 175 energy ((42 energy / shread * 3,33 shreads) + (1 FB * 35 energy /FB))
Damage / energy: 138,1 damage / energy (((5000 damage / shread* 3,33 shreads) + (7500 damage /FB)* 1 FB)) / 175 energy.
Calculating damage/Combo point:
1 CP: 666,6 damage (((7500 damage / FB(or 5 CPs)) – ((35 energy / 42 energy / shread) * 5000 damage / shread)) / 5 CPs)
Feral talents:
Tier 1:
Ferocity
Rake:
Without F: 2667 energy ((40 energy / 9 sec) * 600 sec)
With F: 2333 energy ((35 energy / 9 sec) * 600 sec)
DPS: 76,7 DPS ((2667 energy – 2333 energy) * 138,1 damage / energy) / 600 sec)
% increase: 1,53% ((76,7 DPS / 5000 DPS) *100 %)
Mangle:
Without F: 2250 energy ((45 energy / 12 sec) * 600 sec)
With F: 2000 energy ((40 energy / 12 sec) * 600 sec)
DPS: 57,5 DPS ((2250 energy – 200 energy) * 138,1 damage / energy) / 600 sec)
% increase: 1,15% ((76,7 DPS / 5000 DPS) *100 %)
% increase (without Mangle bot): 2,68% (1,53% + 1,15%)
% increase (with Mangle bot): 1,53%
Feral Aggression
If Recount tells you that FB does 6,7% of all DPS then FA increases DPS by 1% (6,7% * 1,5) – 6,7%))
% increase: about 1%
Tier 2:
Feral Instinct
For single target dps FI is worth 0%.
Savage Fury
If Recount tells you that rake and mangle does a total of 15-20% of your overall dps then SF is worth 3-4% dps increase.
Thick Hide
0%
Tier 3:
Feral Swiftness
? FS will add to survivability and will add some dps to fights which is not just tank and spank.
Survival Instincts
0%
Sharpened Claws
Every attack but Rake can crit. I consider Rake to do 12,5 of all DPS.
Without SC: 1,63 (0,5 (non crit) + 0,5 * 2 (crit) * 1,1 (PI) * 1.03 (meta))
With SC: 1,71 (0,44 (non crit) + 0,56 * 2 (crit) * 1,1 (PI) * 1.03 (meta))
% increase 4,07% ((1,71 / 1,63) -1) *100 %) * 0,875)
Tier 4:
Shredding Attacks
Without SA: 60 energy / shread
With F: 42 energy / shread
SA increases shread DPS by: 43% ((60 /42) -) *100%)
If Recount tells you that shread does 18% of all DPS then SA increases DPS by 5,4% (18% - (18% / 1,43))
% increase: about 5,4%
Predatory Strikes
?
Primal Fury
Energy in a 10 min fight: 6700 energy ((600 sec * 10 energy / sec) + ((30 energy / 30 sec (KoJ)) * 600 sec) + 100 energy (start of the fight))
CP gained in 10 min (50% crit): 167,5 CP (6700 energy * (0,5 CP / 40 energy))
DPS: 186,1 ((167,5 CP * 666,6 damage /CP) / 600 sec)
% increase: 3,72% ((186,1 DPS / 5000 DPS) *100 %)
Primal Precision
Not expertise caped and 2,5 below hit capped:
Without PP: 95% hits
With PP: 97,5% hits
% increase 2,63% (((97,5 / 95) - 1) * 100 %)
It seems as the the energy Prima Precision saved for finishing moves is neglectable.
Consider 2 finishing moves / min or 20 finishing moves in 10 min.
Energy used for finishing moves: 600 energy (20 Finishing moves * 30 energy / finishing move))
Energy lost without PP: 15 energy (600 energy *2,5)
Energy lost with PP: 3 energy ((600 energy *2,5) - (600 energy *2,5 * 0,8))
Energy saved by PP: 12 energy
DPS: 2,8 DPS ((12 energy) * 138,1 damage / energy) / 600 sec)
% increase: 0,06% ((2,8 DPS / 5000 DPS) *100 %)
Tier 5:
Brutal Impact
0%
Feral Charge
? will add some dps to fights which is not just tank and spank.
Nurturing Instinct
0%
Tier 6:
Natural Reaction
0%
Heart of the Wild
?
Survival of the Fittest
?
Tier 7:
Leader of the Pack
Every attack but Rake can crit. I consider Rake to do 12,5 of all DPS.
Without LotP: 1,63 (0,5 (non crit) + 0,5 * 2 (crit) * 1,1 (PI) * 1.03 (meta))
With LotP: 1,70 (0,45 (non crit) + 0,55 * 2 (crit) * 1,1 (PI) * 1.03 (meta))
% increase 3,39% ((1,70 / 1,63) -1) *100 %) * 0,875)
Improved Leader of the Pack
0%
Primal Tenacity
0%
Tier 8:
Protector of the Pack
0%
Predatory Instincts
Every attack but Rake can crit. I consider Rake to do 12,5 of all DPS.
Without LotP: 1,53 (0,5 (non crit) + 0,5 * 2 (crit) * 1.03 (meta))
With LotP: 1,63 (0,5 (non crit) + 0,5 * 2 (crit) * 1,1 (PI) * 1.03 (meta))
% increase 5,89% ((1,70 / 1,63) -1) *100 %) * 0,875)
Infected Wounds
0%
Tier 9:
King of the Jungle
Energy gain by KoJ in a 10 min fight: 1200 energy ((60 energy / 30 sec (KoJ)) * 600 sec)
DPS: 276,2 DPS ((1200 energy) * 138,1 damage / energy) / 600 sec)
% increase: 5,52% ((276,2 DPS / 5000 DPS) *100 %)
Mangle
Rip does 30% more damage. Consider Rip to do 25% overall dps (with mangle). Without Mangle Rip drops by (25 – (25 / 1,30)) 5,77%
% increase: 5,77% (25 – (25 / 1,30))
Improved Mangle
Without IM: 2000 energy ((40 energy / 12 sec) * 600 sec)
Without IM: 1700 energy ((34 energy / 12 sec) * 600 sec)
DPS: 69,1 DPS ((2000 energy – 1700 energy) * 138,1 damage / energy) / 600 sec)
% increase: 1,38% ((69,1 DPS / 5000 DPS) *100 %)
Tier 10:
Rend & Tear
Shread does 20% more dps (Consider shread to do 18% DPS. Without R&T it drops by 3% (18 – (18/1,2)
FB crit chance is improved by 25%
Without FB: 1,63 (0,5 (non crit) + 0,5 * 2 (crit) * 1,1 * 1.03 (meta))
With LotP: 1,95 (0,25 (non crit) + 0,75 * 2 (crit) * 1,1 (PI) * 1.03 (meta))
% FB increase 19,38% ((1,95 / 1,63) -1) *100 %)
If FB does 6,7% overall DPS then R&T increases DPS by 1,30% ((6,7% * 1,1938)-6,7%)
% increase: 4,3% (3% (Shread) + 1,3% (FB)
Primal Gore
If Recount tells you that Rip does 20% of all DPS then PG increases DPS by 12,7% (20% * 1,63 (0,5 (non crit) + 0,5 * 2 (crit) * 1,1 (PI) * 1.03 (meta)) – 20%)
% increase: 12,7%
Tier 11:
Berserk
Consider having 100 energy when using beserk and another 150 energy for the 15 sec beserk last.
DPS without beserk: 57,5 ((250 energy * 138,1 damage / energy) / 600 sec)
DPS without beserk: 115,1 ((250 energy * 2 * 138,1 damage / energy) / 600 sec)
DPS increase/Beser: 57,5 (115,1 DPS – 57,5 DPS)
Consider 4 beskerks in 10 min.
DPS increase: 230,2
% increase: 4,60% ((230,2 DPS / 5000 damage/sec)*100%)
This calculation overwalue Beserk a little.
Resto talents:
Tier 1:
Improved Mark of the Wild
?
Furor
0%
Tier 2:
Naturalist
10%
Natural Shapeshifter
0%
Tier 3:
Omen of Clarity
OOM: 800 energy ((40 energy / 30 sec) * 600 sec)
DPS: 184,1 DPS ((800 energy) * 138,1 damage / energy) / 600 sec)
% increase: 3,68% ((69,1 DPS / 5000 DPS) *100 %)
Master Shapeshifter
Every attack but Rake can crit. I consider Rake to do 12,5 of all DPS.
Without MS: 1,63 (0,5 (non crit) + 0,5 * 2 (crit) * 1,1 * 1.03 (meta))
With MS: 1,68 (0,46 (non crit) + 0,54 * 2 (crit) * 1,1 (PI) * 1.03 (meta))
% increase 2,71% ((1,68 / 1,63) -1) *100 %) * 0,875)
3rd post.
ReplyDeleteAbout Demoralizing roar (DR), Feral Aggression (FA) and bosses AP.
Acording to the link below bosses have 575 AP and according to wowwiki and other sources boss AP increases their damabe by about 15%.
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/42342-level-80-boss-ap.html
http://www.wowwiki.com/Attack_power
Using DR is therefore not a trivial mitigation move. Improved DR (with FA) reduces bosses AP to about 0 (575-408*1,4) and thereby reduces their physical damage to about 87% ((1/1,15)*100%). Normal DR reduces bosses AP by about 70% (1-(575-408)/575)*100%) and thereby reduces the bosses physical damage to about 90,5% ((1/(1+(0,15*0,7)))*100%).
Improved DR (with FA) reduces physical damage taken by about 3,5% (90,5%-87%) compared to normal DR. On a boss that does 20k damage DR reduces damage to 18,1k (20k*0,905) and improved DR (with FA) reduces damage to 17,4k (20k*0,87). DR is better on hard hitting bosses then Bear shield. In comparison Protector of the pack reduces damage to 17,6k (20k*0,88).
Put in another way for a boss that does pure physical damage not putting the DR debuff on the boss is almost like tanking without Protector of the pack. You are not tanking without Protector of the pack, right:P
If you are building a pure tank build and threat is not an issue (or the boss is tauntable which make threat irrelevant) you should at least consider putting 5 points into Feral Aggression (FA).
However, I do not consider Feral Aggression to be a mandatory Tank talent, but an option to be considered.
4th post.
ReplyDeleteTalents/buffs which can/cannot be mimiced by other classes.
Demoralizing roar can be supplied by warriors (I dont know if DK and Paladins have a simmilar debuff but my best guss is that they do).
Leader of the Pack can to the best of my knowlede be mimiced by an arms warrior.
Improved LotP I belive that a Blood speced DK can provide this buff!!
Infected Wounds can be mimiced by DK (talent tree?), Warriors (talent tree?), Paladins (talent tree?).
Mangle can be mimiced by arms warrior (trauma).
Improved Mark of the Wild resto druids and maby Balance druid can supply ImoftW.
5th post.
ReplyDeleteTalents which are woth taking a closer look at when building a raid spec.
Tier 1:
You have to pick either Ferocity (2,7%-1,5% or 0,54%-0,3%/TP) or Feral Aggression (about 1% or 0,2%/TP). Both are very weak talents for DPS. You should only get both if you are getting a 100% DPS build.
If you are getting a 100% DPS build and need some talent points for versatility dont be afraid to take points out of FA as each talent point in FA only increases DPS by about 0,2% or 10 DPS/TP (if you are doing 5000 DPS).
For a Tank, especially for a MT at least consider putting talent points into Feral Aggression (see the 3rd post above). For an off-tank not getting Ferocity make your swipe 5 rage more expensive which might hurt too much when picking up adds.
Tier 4:
Primal Precision seems to be totally worthless if you are expertise capped as a cat. Even if you are not hit capped (but still expertise capped) you get almost nothing from this talent as a cat.
Tier 7:
Improved LotP is defently debatable and depends on play style. If you shift a lot and/or off-heal it is a very good talent. The healing part is hard to do any math on, but a talent which has the potential to heal about haft the raid (including tanks) every 6 second is hard to pass in my opinion.
Predatory Instincts (5,9% or 1,96%/TP) if you are building a hybrid spec you should consider getting this talent as it is a very strong DPS talent.
Tier 8:
Infected Wounds is defently debatable. This buff can be supplied by other classes. The question is – can you always count on someone else to keep up the buff?? If you dont want to rely on others then pick up this talent.
Tier 9:
King of the Jungle (5,5% % or 1,84%/TP) if you are building a hybrid spec you should consider getting this talent as it is a very strong DPS talent.
Improved Mangle (1,4%-0% or 0,46%-0%/TP) the weakest DPS talent (except for Fercity and Feral Aggression). If you got a mangle bot / arms warrior you might not use mangle at all.
For a tank it is worth nothing against multiple mobs (where you spam swipe/maul).
For tanking a boss it increases DPS by 2,8% (0,9%/TP) and tps by 3,74% (1,25%/TP) (http://wowthinktank.blogspot.com/2009/01/druid-threat-value-of-improved-mangle.html).
With Idol of the corruptor (drops in Uldar) it increases avoidance some and with the idol Improved Mangle might be worth considering for tanking (http://omen-of-clarity.blogspot.com/2009/04/go-for-improved-mangle.html).
Bottom line, I dont know if Improved Mangle is good (or how good) for tanking or not!!
Restio Tier 3:
Master Shapeshifter (2,7% or 0,54%/TP) the weakest DPS talent (except for Improved Mangle, Fercity and Feral Aggression).
For tanking (anything) increases DPS by 4% (0,8%/TP) and tps by 5,2% (4% *1,3 tps modifier) (1,04%/TP) ( I am not 100% sure about the tps modifier).
Anyhow, Improved Mangle and Master Shapeshifter seems to be very simmilar for both DPSing and tanking. Whether you pick up IM or MSS probably depends on if you got 3 or 5 talents point and if you have Idol of the corruptor.
Closing remarks:
If you are making a Hybrid spec you should probably leave Improved Mangle and Master Shapeshifter as the last talents to get.
If you are making a MT spec both Improved Mangle and Master Shapeshifter improves threat. You should at least consider Feral Aggression (attack power reduction buff) for a MT spec.
A 100% kitty spec is almost a no brainer. Improved Mangle is not a great DPS talent and if you got someone to keep up the debuff for you wont get anything from this talent. If you are expertise capped you can spend the 2 talent points from Primal Precision on somethinge else. If you want some versatility you can take points out of Feral Aggression or Improved Mangle.
I would recomend anyone who are doing any serious tanking to get Infected Wounds unless they know exactly what they are doing.
Lastly Improved LotP. If you are a MT I would recomend it. If you are a hybrid spec or a 100% DPS you should consider it unless you know someone else will provide the buff. In addition ILotP regains mana which, depending on playstile, can be very valuable.
IlotP is hard to do math on which leaves us with discussion (“sigh”) as our best tool to evaluate this talent. Your mileage may differ from mine.
Conclusion:
You should base your spec on what you do, what you are expected to do or idealy what you like to do.
A DPS spec can get some versatility by taking point out of Feral Aggression or Improved Mangle.
A Tank spec can be build for either max DPS/threat or for max avoidance/mittergation or something in between.
Hybrid spec is specialised in off-tanking.
A Hybrid spec have the potential to be used for both MTing (can get every Tanking talent, except for FA, IM and MSS) and to do competitive DPS (can get every DPS talent, except for FA (1% or less), IM (1,5%-0%), MSS (2,5-3%) and probably 1 glyph (1%)). Hybrid spec have one more advantage by freeing up one talent build for something else like a reto, balance, pvp or another feral spec.
Hey I finally got to read em. Thanks for posting them.
ReplyDeleteOn thing I must say, for me hybrid is only useful when you are an OT. OT in the sense that part of the fight you are cat, part of the fight you are bear. These fights are seldom there. I am either tanking or dpssing. That is why I have a "pure" dps and a "pure" tanking specs.
After farming a place for a while I also end up with 2 completely different sets of gear. That is mostly due to the enchants and slight differences. However, I must agree that you are right where it comes to the first weeks of new content. That gear is often better for dps AND tanking then old gear, though it is probably not optimal for both, with certain exceptions left over.
First post:
On your glyph calculation. One thing I missed was the combopoints used. Glyph of Rip and Shred are a lot worth if you factor in the fact that it will cost you less CP which gives you less stress and more FB. (Or did I miss it, it was a lot of data, sorry I didn't go into it in full depth).
2nd Post:
Feral Instinct made me think. What is the dps increase you get from it? I calculated it, using my spreadsheet data above. It does about 100 more TPS on an 8 MMS cycle and and about 90 on a 9 iMangle Cycle. It is actually worth less then iMangle from a pure threat point of view. However, since it is so good on trash, you better take them anyway.
On your 3rd post:
Quote "or the boss is tauntable which make threat irrelevant". This is imo a horrible attitude. Tauntable bosses should not ever be taunted by the MT unless there is a tactic behind it. What if your taunt misses? I hear ppl laughing at the fact that they have never seen a taunt miss. I have seen it happen plenty, AND I have the glyph of growl. Currently I have much hit in my tanking gear so it can only miss 2.5% of the time. Still that is a bit too much. When taunting a mob you should be guaranteed that you have it and not wipe because it kills of valuable members or other tanks because you have to wait 8 seconds for it to come of cooldown.
Always keep aggro is what I think about that.
Post 5:
I made a new post on Primal Precision.
Thanks for the comments.
ReplyDeleteRegarding spec: I understand your point about full dps or full tank spec. But for someone (more cassual) who want a pvp or resto spec as well as a feral spec, the hybrid spec should not let you down whether you dps or tank.
Regarding glyphs: I have factered in the combo points.
The way I do the math is rather simple. If possible I calculate the energy saved by getting a talent/glyph. Then I multiply the energy with avarage damage/energy. Average damage/energy in my calculations is: 175 energy / 3,33 shreads damage + 1 FB damage (average). (175 energy is 3,33*42+35).
My math build on these assumptions which are....assumptions. I did the math not so much to get accurate numbers but to get something which allow us to compare talents, glyphs and specs with each other.
Regarding T7 2 set bonus, glyph of rip and glyph of shread. The value of each of them decreases if you already got one or two of the others (eg. Glyph of Rip is worth less if you already got Glyph of Shread compared to having Glyph of Rip alone) (see bottom of post 1).
On another note, I think FB looses alot of value on non-tank and spank fight. If you have to move away from the boss for a few seconds your wont be building combo points and your Rip and Savage Roar will be running. The combo points you build when you get back to the boss will be used to refresh Rip and Savage Roar instead of FB.
What I am trying to say is, the Feral Aggression talent might be worth even less then I have calculated.
Regardign Feral Instinct (FI) talent: An increas of 100 TPS out of 7000 TPS!! Conclusion: Get FI for tanking adds or trash not to increase your TPS on a boss:)
Regarding Taunt: I think you misunderstand me. If I understand you right, you will taunt when someone else gets agro from the boss? I will use taunt to make sure I always stay on top of the treat-meter.
When does someone pull agro from a boss? Melee need to be 10% higher on threat then the tank to pull agro and range need 30%. If the tank is at 500k threat then melee need to be at 550k and range 650k to pull agro. If you are at 500k and a melee is at 525k you can use taunt and if successfull you (the tank) imideatly go from 500k to 525k threat. If you miss, the melee need to do more then 25k threat then you in 8 seconds (cd of taunt). When you get higher on threat (say 1.000k) it is impossible for anyone to pull agro from a tank if the boss is tauntable.
If the boss is tauntable then it is only in the beginning of the fight you should be afraid someone pulls agro (blow beserk early).
Ah ok I get the taunt thing now.
ReplyDeleteOne boss however that is totally vulnerable to that; Vezax are not tauntable. Ranged doesn't do damage all of the time, but some of the time. In that time I saw our balance druid do 12k dps. If you dont have enough threat he starts running the melee can't interrupt and it is a wipe.
But indeed you are talking about offtank. And no offtank will ever tank Vezax.
"But indeed you are talking about offtank. And no offtank will ever tank Vezax."
ReplyDeleteYes I was talking about off-tanking.
If you are going to MT the big bad boys you should gear and spec acordingly:)
What is the value of PP (or expertise) for a tank?
ReplyDeleteAssumption:
Boss parry: 15%
Parry swing timer increase: 1,4
Expertise(%): Damage taken:
15 100
12,5 101
10 102
9 102,4
7,5 103
6,5 103,4
5 104
2,5 105
0 106
As can be seen from the chart above, a tank takes about 1% less damage by increasing expertise by 2,5% (PP increases expertise by 2,5%). Ofcourse the 1% damage is on average whereas parry haste is spike damage.
I dont think expertise is all that important for a tank at the moment. It is very hard to hit the cap and I dont think Blizzard is designing the bosses thinking that all tanks are expertise capped.
Should expertise be seen as avoidance or mittergation? 2,5% expertise increases incomming damage by 1% on average and I therfore think expertise can be looked at as mittergation!!
When looking at PP and thick hide (10% more armor) which of the two is best for a off-tank?
Is it too dangerous for an off-tank to take the two talent points out of PP?
Math:
If the tank has 12,5% expertise. The boss parries 5% of attack. Damage tagen by the tank compared to a tank which is expertise capped (15%): (0,975*1 + 0,025*1,4)*100% = 101% or 1% more damage.
Damn, I posted at the wrong article.
ReplyDeleteI have made a repost at
http://omen-of-clarity.blogspot.com/2009/04/value-of-expertise-and-primal-precision.html